Digital revolution and a journey through networking history

Phil Gervasi: The internet has certainly changed the world in many, many ways and I think that's a given and pretty obvious to us today, but it's amazing how so many events that we don't normally associate with technology per se were impacted by our newfound interconnectedness. Today, we're talking with Larry Press, who was part of some of these events years and years ago when really the internet, if we could even call it that, was a little more than academic type people sending text to each other over phone lines. As simplistic as that sounds, we'll be talking about doing just that, how sending text over phone lines played a role in a Russian coup attempt in 1991, as well as several other initiatives over the years for small nations and large nations to make their way onto the global stage of information exchange. We're also joined by Kentik's Doug Madory, who is no stranger to analyzing how technology shapes geopolitical events. My name is Phil Gervasi, and this is Telemetry Now. Larry, Doug, welcome today. So, glad to have you both, Larry, for the first time meeting you, it's a real pleasure, and then Doug, of course, returning guest, both of you with incredible histories in the technology space and the networking in particular. Larry, just getting to know you for the first time and then meeting you the other day prior to the show, some real amazing stories that I'm looking forward to hearing today. Now, I know that you and Doug have somewhat of a history. So, Doug, I'm going to pass it off to you if you wouldn't mind kicking us off and getting us started today.

Doug Madory: Yeah, so Larry, I'm so happy to have you on this podcast. I think in these days, we live in an age where the promise of the internet, for better or worse, is here, but not that long ago, this was something that was still a dream of a lot of people. We have a couple of celebrity internet founders like Vince Cerf that we talk about a lot, but there were a lot of other people who were real pioneers. What's wonderful about this moment in time is that those pioneers walk among us today still. They're in the industry and you can reach out and talk to them about what it was like to get the internet off the ground in a lot of parts of the world. That is something that's a fascination of mine. So, hopefully, Larry, you can talk a little about that, but I came to know Larry Press maybe more than 10 years ago when I was fairly new to the industry as an internet measurement guy. I had been asked, I was at Renesys at the time, which is a small boutique startup doing internet measurement routing. I had been asked to try to get smart on, " How do we see submarine cable activations, cuts, and any kind of submarine cable activity in our internet measurement data?" Because it's a known difficult task. The packets aren't marked by what submarine cable you're on, inaudible neither. So, it's a lot of inference. You have to use a lot of band knowledge to figure this out. So, while I was getting smart on this, one of the stories that I came across and I came across it on the internet in Cuba blog, which was the blog that Larry has maintained for many, many years, documenting the trials and tribulations of the development of internet in Cuba in that very unique environment. So, I learned of this ALBA- 1 submarine cable that was financed by the Venezuelan government to connect the country island nation of Cuba to the global internet and get them off satellite. At that time, the cable was supposedly built, but no one had any evidence of it. I started reading those posts by Larry. There was a lot of speculation of what took place there with the cable, had the money been stolen and then the cable was never built or maybe it's just being used by Castro himself or something. We had good data. We could see the country was still on satellite. So, I shared a few graphs with Larry. He asked if he could post them on his blog. I was like, " Go for it. It's totally fine." Then the next thing, it was a headline in the Miami Herald that Doug Madory from Renesys says on Larry's blog posts that there's no new news in Cuba. I was like, "Wow, there's a lot of appetite for this story." I really got into trying to follow that closely, and that led to the discovery of the activation about a year and a half later. So, Larry, maybe you could take us back a little before. I came to know you maybe 10 years ago, but your interest in the internet in Cuba was part of your interest in helping develop the internet in the developing world. Do you want to tell us about that work?

Larry Press: Sure. Thanks, Doug. I didn't realize that man, it's been a long time. Yeah. I was messing around with internet before the internet existed, before TCP/ IP and all that. I, myself, and a group of guys, they were at University of Arizona in Stanford. When the internet came around, we had a group we formed called the Mosaic Group. The Mosaic Group's charge or interest was to try to both measure or integrate the adoption of the internet in developing nations and also implicitly to encourage it. So, we had a framework that we used to do case studies, and we ran around as many places as we could and did case studies of the state of the internet in a given nation. We were in Bangladesh. We did Cuba. That's how I got to know about ALBA- 1 and got to know Doug, but a number of other nations. We were just monitoring the state of the internet, but we were also really encouraging it. We thought it was a wonderful thing. We were naive. We didn't understand that it could be used for nefarious purposes at that time, but that's what we were doing, just trying to encourage and monitor the state of the internet.

Doug Madory: Larry, what was the timeframe for that? What year was that group in operation?

Larry Press: Oh, goodness. I don't know.

Doug Madory: 1980s?

Larry Press: Yeah, let me see if I can figure it out.

Phil Gervasi: Looking at the publication, yeah, it looks like the primary activity was throughout the'90s for the most part, the early'90s and the late'80s.

Larry Press: Probably the early'90s.

Phil Gervasi: Yup, in the early'90s, which makes sense because that's when we saw the first major proliferation of the internet as we know it today at least. Is that organization Mosaic still active in any way?

Larry Press: No. Okay. No, it was not a-

Phil Gervasi: It served its purpose.

Larry Press: Yeah. Mosaic was not a formal organization. It was just a number of people from a couple of different institutes, places that knew each other. It is no longer. At any rate, that was done in the early'90s to the mid- 90s is when we were doing it. At that time, the internet existed, but we were doing... I can remember doing a teleconference on teleconferencing using a system called ICE, I think it was called from... Geez, I can't remember. Somebody back in New York had this system. So, people were starting to do this kind of thing, but before the internet. There was BITNET too that was connecting up universities, but you're right, this was early in the existence of the internet. The way Cuba got connected and the way a lot of those nations got connected was that National Science Foundation had a program where they would help academic and research networks in developing nations get connected to the internet. So, for example, in the case of Cuba, what NSF would do would help them buy a router, give them free transport on the NSFNET within the United States, and also help with the link from their country to NSFNET. So, in the case of Cuba, we paid for their first connection. We paid for a satellite link from Sprint to Florida and gave them internet connectivity. That program went on for several... I could look it up and tell you, but there were maybe 25 nations that were subsidized in that way by NSF. So, that was a real terrific contribution by the US, and also ironically, we were helping Cuba.

Doug Madory: Something I don't think we could imagine happening today, unfortunately.

Larry Press: Yeah, that's the understatement of the year.

Doug Madory: Yeah, the both administrations, it doesn't make a difference really. It ends up being the same similar policy.

Larry Press: The truth is Obama really reached out to the Cubans and made a number of offers basically, and the Cubans were not receptive. It was the stoppage there. Then once Trump took over, it was all over.

Doug Madory: Yeah. I remember so soon after the opening, so it was December 2014 that we had announced the intent to try to normalize relations with Cuba. Obviously, that's ancient history now and it didn't really come to fruition, but the LACNIC Conference, so the conference that roams around the Latin America, Caribbean, this is like the South American version of RIPE or NANOG. They've scheduled one to take place in Havana. So, I went and that was my one time to travel to Cuba and meet some of the people that we've corresponded with there, but again, I think the times have changed. There was a détente briefly there, but I don't see them hosting another conference anytime soon. So, back to the Mosaic work and those years, so there was another event that took place that you had a role that I think is maybe a somewhat forgotten or undertold story of the role of the internet or its precursor in the coup or attempted coup in 1991. So, just to set the scene here, the Soviet Union is still a thing and Gorbachev is in power. He's been relaxing and trying to thaw relations with the west over years. Not everybody's happy with that as far as the authorities in the old guard. So, in August of that year, some generals went rogue and they decided they would arrest Gorbachev at his summer retreat on the Black Sea and take charge of the country. Along those lines, they shut down communications at the time, somewhat similar to the communication shutdowns we see these days, but different in that the phone lines were cut. You couldn't make a call in and out of the country. The news organizations, the radio was all either blacked out or they played classical music or ballet was on TV to be a completely information blackout. The one channel to the west ended up being this connection to this precursor to the internet. You had a role in that. Do you want to tell that story?

Larry Press: Yeah, no, it was just by luck. I was there at the time. Again, we used the UUCP, the network news to communicate asynchronously back and forth for some time before the regular internet connection. Using UUCP, I had gotten in touch with a guy called Yuri Gornostaev who was, he ran this a data center in Moscow, which served all of the scientific literature for all of the communist nations. So, he had a big data center. He is a pretty highly placed guy. So, using this UUCP, this precursor network, he contacted me and asked me if I would like to help him organize an international conference on HCI, on human computer interaction. I said, " Yeah, it sounded like fun." So we worked for, I don't know, maybe a year or so. We put a conference together and got all the calls for papers and whatnot, and it was in Moscow. So, when the conference finally came up, I went to Moscow and we had our conference. Since I'd been using UUCP to communicate with Yuri and other people, I wanted to meet the people that were doing that in Moscow, that nascent networking community. So, I just contacted them probably using their own network and ended up spending about a week in Moscow and a lot of that time hanging out with those guys informally. I went to their place, went parties at their house. We went swimming together and stuff. So, I just got to know them, and that was about that. I came home, and about a day or two later, the coup attempt that Doug just talked about occurred. So, I was there. Another guy that I'd invited to this conference was called Jonathan Gruden and he's an American, but he was in Denmark at the time. So, once that coup started, like Doug said, all the media shut down, but UUCP went on and one of the people I was talking to said... So, we were able to keep communicating. So, Jonathan in Denmark and me in the United States would feed news from the outside back into Russia, and they in turn would use UUCP to report to us what was going on. The biggest thing that happened was Yeltsin, when he stood up on top of a tank in front of the parliament and read our proclamation, he sent that to us, but we also got news of what was happening in different cities. So, every two hours or so, we would get an update on what was going on there. For our part, we would do the same. We would give them feedback as to how the coup attempt was being reported in the United States and in Denmark. So, it was a really neat communication channel. Another guy, David Bozak, he was at State University in New York, captured all this traffic and put it on an archive on a server at SUNY. I'm not sure if it's still there.

Doug Madory: It is. You sent the link and I was going through this morning. If it's possible, maybe we can put that in the show notes if somebody really wanted to dig into this story.

Larry Press: Put all that stuff in the show notes. Yeah, so it's an early example of catching real time history, I guess.

Doug Madory: Yeah. What's interesting about that episode is that these days when something similar happens these days, usually, internet service is cut out. That's something where I end up in our data. We contribute some technical details to the coverage of that. The phone lines are often up, but the internet's down. But in this situation, it was the reverse where the phones were down, but the internet was up only because nobody knew about it at the time. It was... I don't want to say insignificant, but not a lot of people-

Larry Press: It was under the radar. Yeah, if you go through David's archive, you'll see one of the quotes was a woman called Polina Antonova. She ended up in the US, by the way, as did her husband who was system administrator, and she wrote something to the effect on radio and on TV, they only show old operas. They don't know we exist, but if they catch us, they will kill us. They were taking risk.

Doug Madory: Yeah, yeah. It was a courageous act. Then I only know about that story. So, I had known you for a number of years. I went down to the LACNIC Conference in Cuba. On the plane while flying to Cuba, I was reading Andrei Soldatov's book, the Red Web, which was the history of the internet development and the surveillance state in Russian Soviet Union. Now, he is courageous Russian independent journalist. He no longer can reside in Russia given the risks he faces. In fact, I think he's on the hit list of Putin these days. But he wrote a book and he writes from the Russian perspective, this episode, but it named you. So, I mean, it was really weird. I'm on the plane to Cuba reading a book about Russia, and in the book about Russia is about Larry, who I know about Cuba. My mind was spinning. I was like, " Man, worlds are colliding." I took a picture of it and I sent it. I was like, " Gosh, I didn't know that you had been involved in it." I think I had heard that story, but I didn't know you were the person, but you're in the book.

Larry Press: No, that's true.

Phil Gervasi: Another thing that's weird though is so Andrei Soldatov, his father was once... So, the connection you guys were connecting to was Relcom, which I guess maybe at that time was still... It later became the first ISP of Russia. Maybe it wasn't at that moment, but the president of Relcom was Alexey Salif, which was Andrei Soldatov's father. So, there's like so many cross connects here. He ended up being the head of Relcom and later started the Russian version of the NSA signal intelligence outfit.

Larry Press: I didn't know that.

Doug Madory: Which ended up being the subject of pretty much all of Andrei Soldatov's, the son's reporting, which is, again, it's a wild story, but I don't want to get too far off field here on the Russian stuff.

Larry Press: All right. Let me give you another little piece then.

Doug Madory: Go for it. Yeah, go for it.

Larry Press: I remember being at his house at a party or something just with the Relcom folks, and there was a teletype over in the corner. He pointed out that the teletype, he had dialed up his server six months before that and just never bothered to hang up because they didn't meet their local calls in Moscow. So, he had a persistent online connection just to his server at that time. But yeah, they were a really nice bunch of young people. Two of them at least that I know of are in the US now.

Doug Madory: So then that brings us up to the beginning of the conversation of how we got connected on the plight of internet connectivity in Cuba. So, then I read your posts. We started corresponding, and I think I made a promise here. I'll keep an eye on this, and if it shows up in BGP, I can set something up here. I'll get alerted as soon as it happens. I set that up and it was another 18 months or so, something like that before one of my automated things shot me an email and said, " There's a new connection coming into Cuba." I was like, "Oh, that's interesting." So then again, back to the conversation about trying to detect things about submarine cables, it's not obvious. Telefonica now is a new transit provider for a Texas, which is a state telecom of Cuba. That alone isn't enough to know that has anything to do with the submarine cable, but we had active measurements. We had traces. We were running to every part of the world continuously from servers all over the world, and we could see that the latencies had dropped. So, the prior to that, the latencies, Cuba was entirely reliant on geostationary satellite service for all of their global connectivity. That was a product of the embargo and all the submarine cables that were laid in the Caribbean all steered way clear of trying to not cross paths with the US embargo against Cuba. So, they were entirely dependent on geostationary satellite. Geostationary satellite, one of the weaknesses is that it has a very high latency just due to physics and the speed of light. To send a signal out to outer space and back, you can't do it in under 480 milliseconds for a geostationary satellite. So, that's usually a good threshold. If you're seeing latencies coming in lower, it can't be satellite anymore. Yeah, we were on our active measurement. We could see the latencies dropped to 300. It was still high, but definitely, it could no longer be both legs of the path going over a satellite. Then we theorize. I wonder if it's like asymmetric if the traffic's coming in over the submarine cable in a way that we can't... We can't see the return path, but the return path is going out satellite. So, it's asymmetric. I wrote that up in a blog, and a couple days later, we saw it just fixed. Then it dropped again and now it was a lower latency. It was a couple months later. I was at another LACNIC Conference in Columbia and I met the director of ETECSA and one of the organizers welcome me to the conference. I was like, " Anybody you want to talk to?" I had a few companies I need to speak with. Then I was like, " Oh, anybody from Cuba. I'd be curious what their take is on the cable." He is like, " Well, you're in luck. You're standing right next to the director of ETECSA. You want to meet him?" I was like, " Sure." So then I was like, " Hey, I'm Doug Madory from Renesys." The guy looked at my badge and he was like, " Yeah, I know who you are." I was like, " Oh, okay. Well, hey, congratulations on the cable. I'm glad that internet connectivity is improving your country. I really am not personally invested in the politics." Then without any prompting, he was like, " You were right about the asymmetric routing." I was like, " Oh, that's funny." We read your blog and we're like, " Oh yeah, we didn't change... The outbound traffic was still going over satellite, which is why the latency was still high." Yeah. So, then Larry, you spent a lot more time documenting this than I have as far as after the cable, which now in January this year, that's 10 years that that cable was activated. A decade has gone by. Yeah, I don't know. What's the state? What's changed in the last 10 years since the submarine cable came active?

Larry Press: What's changed is this. I remember at the time Obama went to Cuba and I can't remember... I think there were five or six proposals for other underground undersea cables at the time. I don't know for sure, but my guess is that Cuba was not receptive. Castro was going out. He was an old man and maybe they were conservative and didn't want to do anything radical at the time. I don't know anything about the politics, but there was a guy in the state department told me there were five or six active proposals to do an undersea cable, another undersea cable connection to the US. None of those came to pass. Doug, I'm blanking out. What's the name of that Caribbean cable that goes around the Caribbean and it's very close, comes within about 60 kilometers of Cuba?

Doug Madory: You're talking about ARCOS?

Larry Press: ARCOS, yeah. They put in a proposal, and this was after Obama was gone to have a link- up to Florida. I can't remember all the things that went on, but it was looked at. There was a committee form to assess it. A decision was supposed to be made really quickly, two months it was supposed to take to make a decision. Nothing happened. Trump got in. He set up some kind of a bogus committee to assess the possible problems. Long story short, just about six months ago, they said no, they turned it down. So, the Cubans now have got an undersea cable that goes from Cuba down to Martinique. So, they now have a second cable, not just the first one.

Doug Madory: I've been looking for evidence of that in some active measurement changes. I haven't seen anything. So, the cable was built by Iran, French Telecom, who was already a transit provider for ETECSA who already had a foothold in Martinique. So, it's possible that the traffic's going through a path that was already in existence that would make it hard to pick it up from an internet measurement standpoint. There's a couple of right at RIPE Atlas probes that I'm running measurements from into Cuba to look for a change in the latencies. I haven't seen anything.

Larry Press: My understanding is the cable is there, it's installed, but it's not operation.

Doug Madory: That's probably the case. I guess that was one of the things I learned early on in doing internet measurement around submarine cables was that there was usually one date for the press release and then there's another date when it's actually getting used. It's not necessarily anybody's lying. There's a couple different things that happen. The one is the cable is RFS, ready for service. This is operational. The guys have installed it. They've tested it. It works. It may be a completely separate matter when the parties that make use of it do their negotiations and figure out under what terms would they use it. When lawyers get involved, this is not instantaneous. So, there sometimes is another period of time once that's ironed out, then the engineers get the task. They then start sending traffic down the line. So, I know that in some of the cable activations for Pacific Island countries, those are pretty easy to pick out because it's all or nothing. It's either going to be higher latency, low latency, pretty dramatic changes. I would see the press release that country X now has a submarine cable and I'd look at our data and be like, " Well, it's all satellite still." Then two months later, all of a sudden, the shift would happen and you could see, " All right. Well, that's the day that they actually started carrying traffic." So it's not uncommon that there's an announcement or a press release. It even happened in Crimea. So, after Crimea was annexed in March 2014 and Medvedev... I guess he was prime minister at the time or I forget what. They skipped around in their roles, but he made it a trip to Crimea to claim it for Russia. Then the same breath ordered Rostelecom, the state telecom of Russia to build a submarine cable across the Kerch Strait to link Crimea directly with mainland Russia. Then I think within a couple weeks, Rostelecom put out a press release like, " The cable's done." I was looking at our data. I don't see any change at all. I was like, " It could be. The cable could be done. I'm not saying they're wrong." There's a way to see this change. Then it wasn't until mid- July that we saw traffic start flowing and then the ISPs in Crimea were putting out announcements saying, " You may notice that the latencies to things in Russia may be going down and the latencies to things in Ukraine may be going up because we now have cut over our connectivity." That was exactly what we were seeing as well. We had our own data to show that shift. I guess also in Cuba, I think when this cable came out, mobile internet didn't exist. I mean they are so far behind most countries in the world, even developing countries usually get mobile internet going. They just skip a generation. They forget the fix line because that's a lot of work and just skip over to the wireless stuff because you just need to put up some towers. So, they didn't even have mobile. There's no mobile internet. It was just WiFi, hotspots in certain parts of the city. You see a cluster of people holding a device trying to get some service. I can't remember what year it was, maybe five or more years later, then they got 3G, mobile internet service. Now I guess, I don't know what the state of it is. It's in existence, people have it. I'm sure it's not great. There's always this issue of how much of the lack of development of the internet can you attribute to the Cuban government, which certainly does not embrace the promise of internet connectivity to put it lightly. Then there's also these factors from the outside world coming from the US embargo. So, there's hard to tease apart. Just like the greater Cuban picture of the economy, how much of it is the Cuban government and how much of it is the embargo? Well, at the end of the day, it's in a pretty bad state. Definitely, those are the two main contributing factors.

Larry Press: One thing they did is an interim thing. They made a big push for DSL. DSL in your home or business became available, really crappy spotty service. I mean the Cuban phone lines, the physical lines are ancient. So I'm sure you don't get very fast rates over DSL over any distance on bad phone lines and that they made a big deal, a big push on that. But I think you're right. In mobile, they're doing 4G. Well, you saw we were corresponding with another guy, with Armando. I would like to get the latest statistics on the amount of mobile and what generations and the amount of mobile connectivity. But I think like you say, it's not very good. On the other hand, it's really made a difference. People are using it and people are using it for political sorts of things as well and cultural sorts of things. So, even in its limited state, it's worth quite a bit.

Doug Madory: I guess you could say that we know the internet arrived in Cuba when they started having internet shutdowns when there were protests, because that really wasn't a thing in Cuba. There's no point in sitting on the internet if nobody has access to it. I think that really started maybe, let's see, 2021. So, only a couple years ago when the protests started, the biggest protests in decades occurred and there was a shutdown. There was some multiple shutdowns of mobile service and I think it's reached some-

Larry Press: Like you say though, there was a lot of stuff posted on a lot of YouTube videos.

Doug Madory: People got the word out of what was happening.

Larry Press: The word got out. Big time. Yeah, totally. That's a good point. Just thinking another thing that to just mention back on the submarine cables and the first link was to Venezuela, there's also now a branch off to Jamaica, I believe. The one thing I would add, it's not clear that Venezuela financed it. I have also read that China financed it.

Doug Madory: I guess I'm just going off of what I read.

Larry Press: Well, I'm going off of what I've read too. Let me tell you.

Doug Madory: I haven't done the research to trace the pesos back to where it came from.

Larry Press: No, there's nobody that's giving a straight answer on that, but I do know one thing, a long time ago I came across... Somebody sent me a WikiLeak, just a thing that had been leaked on WikiLeaks. What it was a meeting in which the guy in the embassy, the financial guy in the Chinese embassy was complaining about how Cuba doesn't pay their debts. They were really having some tension there.

Doug Madory: They have some serious financial issues there.

Larry Press: But yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if China was at least involved in the construction of it. We're hearing now all this stuff that China's doing now, but what you said is true. Is China doing it nefarious and Cuba's letting them do it, or is it because the embargo and we pushed him against the wall and they have no choice?

Doug Madory: There's a lot of debate there on that.

Phil Gervasi: I was going to bring up the levels of pervasiveness that you identified in the Mosaic or when you were talking about Cuba and the level of sophistication of the actual use of the internet. To that extent that we can judge whether this is successful or not. You got a cable. Just reading through it, it makes sense. I mean, so we have this connectivity. Does anyone have access to the connectivity? Okay, so now we're starting to move in the right direction. Now that folks have access, is it changing the economy hopefully for the better? Is there anything that we can identify as this activity that's international with the United States and China? We're talking about all these countries and para- government organizations. Is it having an impact on people's lives? I get it that it's 30 years old. I was in junior high when you were working on this, but certainly still very interesting and it feels very relevant still when we consider other developing countries in the world and how it has changed their lives too.

Larry Press: It's not like the connectivity we have here where, like you say, it really hugely facilitates e- commerce and so many other things. However, I think the biggest impact is it does enable people to talk to each other, to organize protests in real time. It has facilitated the existence of an alternative publications both on the internet and off the internet. I can give you a plug for a book whose name I can't remember, the exact name, but it's an anthology that a guy Ted Hankin put together. There are a whole bunch of chapters on this thing, more on what it has come to mean, the way that it's been used rather than the technology itself. I wrote the first chapter on the history of the technology and where the technology was as of that time. I think it was two years ago. So, if people want to follow up and know how it's being used and what impact it's having on the society, on enabling other print and online publications-

Doug Madory: Ted's book, that's focused on Cuba or is that other country?

Larry Press: Yeah, Cuba.

Doug Madory: It's Cuba, yeah.

Larry Press: Yeah, no, it's Cuba, Cuba, Cuba, all Cuba. 100% Cuba.

Doug Madory: Larry, it's been great chatting with you and hearing some of these stories and I look forward to chatting with you again sometime soon and learning more about some stuff of how the internet came to be here and other places. It's a really important topic. We should learn our history because it usually ends up helping us out in the present and the future.

Larry Press: Yeah. Oh man, it's been fun talking and conversely, the stuff you do is invaluable.

Doug Madory: Oh, thank you.

Larry Press: Every time something goes down right away, everybody knows about it.

Phil Gervasi: Larry, I thank you as well. I agree with Doug considering that we take history classes in school and here we are talking about the internet, which has completely changed and shaped the world and how much more important is learning about that immediate history while we still have our primary sources still available. So, very much appreciated. So, Larry, if our listeners have a question or a comment that they'd like to pass along to you, how can they reach out to you?

Larry Press: Geez, I can give you my phone number, but I don't know if they can use that. I guess the easiest way is send email either to larrypress all one word on Gmail or lpress @ csudh. edu. Either way.

Phil Gervasi: Great, thank you. Doug, how about you?

Doug Madory: I'm on LinkedIn, Twitter, those are usually the easiest ways to reach out to me.

Phil Gervasi: Great. Thanks, Doug. I'm still active on Twitter, @ network_phil. You can find my blog, networkphil.com. Search me. I'm on LinkedIn. If you are interested in being a guest on Telemetry Now or if you have an idea for an episode, we'd love to hear from you. Reach out at telemetrynow @kentik.com and until next time. Thanks for listening. Bye- bye.